If people are selectively breeding, they aren't going to come out and say it. Although, as you pointed out, historically, it was understood as such.
I think that most people understand this now, but they aren't part of the "elite" so they wouldn't really be too exposed to these sorts of things.
I live in the US so if there is any of this going on, it's going to be within some other secret society. But there's not reason to think that it's *not* happening. Blood relations were always the dividing line in ancient civilizations. Even if they were rarely ever *not* intermingled, they were believed to be pure by the people agreeing to be ruled. It didn't matter whether or not the person's blood was "pure," it mattered that people believed it was.
I find it interesting that you got into the whole "sense of duty" concept. It would appear that if there are "elites" now, they are rather dumbed-down compared to their historical counterparts. I don't think many people feel a sense of duty to anything anymore. Because once the curtain has been pulled back in sufficient areas, the fraud that was propping up a particular belief becomes exposed. It's very hard to feel a sense of duty to a bunch of liars and frauds.
All of this gets to something I've said many times over the years. Who wants to be the king of shit? Who wants to destroy the existing system so that they can rule over what's left? In other words, why not try and make the existing system as good as you can, then if you wish to make changes, do it from that aspect?
I believe it's because of this mindset, that the US is in the shape it's in right now. The people who want control -- want control first. They appear to be much less worried about the systems working, and more concerned with being in charge. The US Constitution was written explicitly to stop *that* kind of control. Specifically from the top down.
The US Constitution must be destroyed, before the kind of control the new elites desire, can be achieved. That’s why Obama said, (paraphrasing) “The US Constitution is a document of negative liberties.” Because The Constitution explicitly limits the power of those who would centralize power.
Basically, the “elites/globalists” wish to devolve society, in order to gain control -- for the sake of control *not* because they want to make things better.
You final paragraph is why there are some of us who have a sense of duty to preserve the constitution even if it means tearing apart the government agencies that have sought to destroy it to get back to what one of the founders said, and I paraphrase here but here's your republic if you can keep it.
It is hard to have a sense of duty to a class of people that are rootless. They have no connection to America and its people in any way other than it is a market in which they operate.
English language books on French history tend to emphasize that the French aristocracy was not identical to the aristocracy of the UK but included broader elements such as the landed gentry and upper bourgeoisie that wouldn't be aristocracy proper in the UK. They also note that in pre-Revolutionary France, many upper bourgeoisie and successful merchants and the like would purchase the many venal offices to buy their way into the French aristocracy. This wasn't the case in the UK, where you couldn't purchase aristocratic titles. You could buy military commissions in the UK, but that didn't garner a title.
This seems to be a wise approach to the problem of socializing young people. The advantages seem to be that young people meet each other after childhood, develop proper taste in the opposite sex and develop good habits. I don’t think that attempting to force them to marry properly will work, but this seems to be a sensible soft approach.
It raises some questions in my mind:
1. Who does the organizational work and teaching? Is it volunteers or professionals? This type of organization must take significant effort.
2. Are private schools in France still traditionalist or have they gone over to woke? My wife has occasionally suggested we dig deep for private school, but they seem worse than the publicly funded semi-Catholic schools that we currently use.
3. Does this actually work? What is the “retention rate” for this class? Is it better than the US or British upper class? It seems to me that elites tend to marry each other in the end, although there are spectacular failures such as the “hot felon” marrying a billionaire’s daughter.
Can't help the thought that regardless of any soft power wielded by the group(s) you outline at the highest reaches of society, their nation continues its headlong transformation into a country very unlike the heritage from this top stratum. To what extent have members of this group publicly voiced concerns on this issue? My understanding is that, for instance, the FN/NR is mostly a lower middle class or plebian staffed entity, though their leading family grew up in some comfort after being bequeathed various inheritances.
Kudos for recognizing that there was (is?) a black aristocracy in the US. Moreover, it isn’t always recognized that lower down the scale there was always some percentage of blacks who were born free. As for the American aristocracy, I believe the equivalent breeding program is the Ivy League. There you met members of your own class to marry. If you not rich, but were the right sort of up and comer, you might marry in. But there’s a huge denial that class exists at all here, which always seemed strange to me. It’s one of those things everyone knows but can’t talk about. It’s certainly true noblesse oblige is dead dead dead. IMO selfishness became the dominant ethic during the 80s. (He who dies with the most toys wins was one of those jokes that told the truth.) since then guilt has taken over as a kind of performative expiation. It’s shocking to me as an American how shallow and mendacious our elites are. The fruit of the leadership class has been hatred for ordinary Americans. The very opposite of aristocratic duty.
Noblesse oblige or Bon chique bon genre and much more like courtoisie, the selective breeding in practice is in-breeding but resulting in bleeding diseases and neuro degeneration, Alzheimer’s and madness. Don’t forget there’s a stronghold of a French Cabal Rotchild’s.
I'm curious about the mechanics of les rallyes. Do they continue operating and serving as a club for their members during their entire adolescence, college years, afterwards or is there some kind of phase out/graduation period to encourage the kids to get on with it?
Are the women distinguishable from regular elite French women in, for example, their professional career path or lack of it? Is it common or at least not frowned upon for marriages to be entered into by say 20, like it might be in general elite society?
The Elite American WASP culture (the natural aristocracy as Jefferson called it) fragmented because of WW2 and mostly disintegrated soon after during the Cold War. While débutante balls are still held in niche social circles in America, it has largely become a question of economic buy in, or something more crass like cargo cultists trying to recreate social technology they don't understand. The cargo cultist practitioners certainly don't look aristocratic. Perhaps there's some hidden Elite WASP circles that still maintain exclusivity and cohesion of values, but if they are around, they certainty don't appear to do well at contesting political power or even reproduction.
Empire is costly. When men of the Elite are stuffed into Officer uniforms (or even just the gray cubicles of the Civil Service) by the hundreds of thousands and sent far away for decades of service, social ties breakdown, and breeding becomes far less insular (war brides and war orphan adoptions). Traditions die. Bloodlines murky if not outright questionable.
Look at what happened to the Freemasons for instance, a deeply WASPy social institution that was near if not the very heart of Elite WASP culture. They haven't put a man in the White House since 1974 and are unlikely to do so in the future. They're not even WASPy anymore either, not merely on the basis of breeding, but also on culture and ethos. Which brings me back to débutante balls, the less crass ones that create some degree of exclusivity by requiring economic buy in, they are noticeably international and progressive. Understandably, they have little to do with breeding.
Why do you think they disappeared? I think they just transmuted: the New England Puritans are very much the foundation of woke culture -every bit as censorious and intolerant, but without the Jesus part.
Yes, you are partly right, but certainly in terms of their representation in the American elite, their numbers have been greatly reduced. You just see very few WASPs at the forefront of American society--they have "disappeared." Of course they haven't COMPLETELY disappeared, and those that remained are indeed Puritan 2.0 i.e. woke.
It's hard to find a WASP in the forefront of society because a half WASP/half Ashkenazi gets called a Jew, a half WASP/half Italian is Italian, if heritage is recognized at all, etc.
As for Deb balls, there are a lot of different ones. In the south, almost everyone does one, or did until recently. Mostly just LARPing. New Orleans, with a lot of French traditions still, has some. DC has one that looks superficially the same as any old world Deb, but is made up of women who already have a body count of 37. Same with NY(which has the largest and "most prestigious" one in the world). White Russians in NYC still have a relatively real one. A variety of country clubs host them, again more trappings than the real thing.
If people are selectively breeding, they aren't going to come out and say it. Although, as you pointed out, historically, it was understood as such.
I think that most people understand this now, but they aren't part of the "elite" so they wouldn't really be too exposed to these sorts of things.
I live in the US so if there is any of this going on, it's going to be within some other secret society. But there's not reason to think that it's *not* happening. Blood relations were always the dividing line in ancient civilizations. Even if they were rarely ever *not* intermingled, they were believed to be pure by the people agreeing to be ruled. It didn't matter whether or not the person's blood was "pure," it mattered that people believed it was.
I find it interesting that you got into the whole "sense of duty" concept. It would appear that if there are "elites" now, they are rather dumbed-down compared to their historical counterparts. I don't think many people feel a sense of duty to anything anymore. Because once the curtain has been pulled back in sufficient areas, the fraud that was propping up a particular belief becomes exposed. It's very hard to feel a sense of duty to a bunch of liars and frauds.
All of this gets to something I've said many times over the years. Who wants to be the king of shit? Who wants to destroy the existing system so that they can rule over what's left? In other words, why not try and make the existing system as good as you can, then if you wish to make changes, do it from that aspect?
I believe it's because of this mindset, that the US is in the shape it's in right now. The people who want control -- want control first. They appear to be much less worried about the systems working, and more concerned with being in charge. The US Constitution was written explicitly to stop *that* kind of control. Specifically from the top down.
The US Constitution must be destroyed, before the kind of control the new elites desire, can be achieved. That’s why Obama said, (paraphrasing) “The US Constitution is a document of negative liberties.” Because The Constitution explicitly limits the power of those who would centralize power.
Basically, the “elites/globalists” wish to devolve society, in order to gain control -- for the sake of control *not* because they want to make things better.
You final paragraph is why there are some of us who have a sense of duty to preserve the constitution even if it means tearing apart the government agencies that have sought to destroy it to get back to what one of the founders said, and I paraphrase here but here's your republic if you can keep it.
Even Obama is related to other presidents.
It is hard to have a sense of duty to a class of people that are rootless. They have no connection to America and its people in any way other than it is a market in which they operate.
Very interesting, but my experience suggested to me that the real aristocrats are Protestant in France…
One way to make vigorous offspring more probable, besides healthy habits, is by marrying someone from the opposite side of the planet.
Its called hybrid vigor or
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis
English language books on French history tend to emphasize that the French aristocracy was not identical to the aristocracy of the UK but included broader elements such as the landed gentry and upper bourgeoisie that wouldn't be aristocracy proper in the UK. They also note that in pre-Revolutionary France, many upper bourgeoisie and successful merchants and the like would purchase the many venal offices to buy their way into the French aristocracy. This wasn't the case in the UK, where you couldn't purchase aristocratic titles. You could buy military commissions in the UK, but that didn't garner a title.
This seems to be a wise approach to the problem of socializing young people. The advantages seem to be that young people meet each other after childhood, develop proper taste in the opposite sex and develop good habits. I don’t think that attempting to force them to marry properly will work, but this seems to be a sensible soft approach.
It raises some questions in my mind:
1. Who does the organizational work and teaching? Is it volunteers or professionals? This type of organization must take significant effort.
2. Are private schools in France still traditionalist or have they gone over to woke? My wife has occasionally suggested we dig deep for private school, but they seem worse than the publicly funded semi-Catholic schools that we currently use.
3. Does this actually work? What is the “retention rate” for this class? Is it better than the US or British upper class? It seems to me that elites tend to marry each other in the end, although there are spectacular failures such as the “hot felon” marrying a billionaire’s daughter.
1. Rallye fees vary between 2000 to 10000 a year depending on the rallye. They are typically organized by high society women.
2. Another big difference is, indeed, that many private schools in France, including elite schools, are still traditionalist.
3. It seems to work better than the WASP alternatives! For obvious reasons, though, there are no statistics, so it's anyone's guess.
Can't help the thought that regardless of any soft power wielded by the group(s) you outline at the highest reaches of society, their nation continues its headlong transformation into a country very unlike the heritage from this top stratum. To what extent have members of this group publicly voiced concerns on this issue? My understanding is that, for instance, the FN/NR is mostly a lower middle class or plebian staffed entity, though their leading family grew up in some comfort after being bequeathed various inheritances.
Kudos for recognizing that there was (is?) a black aristocracy in the US. Moreover, it isn’t always recognized that lower down the scale there was always some percentage of blacks who were born free. As for the American aristocracy, I believe the equivalent breeding program is the Ivy League. There you met members of your own class to marry. If you not rich, but were the right sort of up and comer, you might marry in. But there’s a huge denial that class exists at all here, which always seemed strange to me. It’s one of those things everyone knows but can’t talk about. It’s certainly true noblesse oblige is dead dead dead. IMO selfishness became the dominant ethic during the 80s. (He who dies with the most toys wins was one of those jokes that told the truth.) since then guilt has taken over as a kind of performative expiation. It’s shocking to me as an American how shallow and mendacious our elites are. The fruit of the leadership class has been hatred for ordinary Americans. The very opposite of aristocratic duty.
This makes me want to return to Jacques Barzun’s book on the origin of “race” in the selective breeding program of the euro aristocracy
Do you have the title of the book?
https://www.amazon.com/Race-Study-Superstition-Jacques-BARZUN/dp/B0000CMW7T
Having just read this, I think I'll skip it.
https://academic.oup.com/ahr/article-abstract/44/1/62/112611?redirectedFrom=fulltext
Louis XIV le Roi Soleil…..God.
Noblesse oblige or Bon chique bon genre and much more like courtoisie, the selective breeding in practice is in-breeding but resulting in bleeding diseases and neuro degeneration, Alzheimer’s and madness. Don’t forget there’s a stronghold of a French Cabal Rotchild’s.
because race dictates religion no the other way around
Hey PEG,
I'm curious about the mechanics of les rallyes. Do they continue operating and serving as a club for their members during their entire adolescence, college years, afterwards or is there some kind of phase out/graduation period to encourage the kids to get on with it?
Are the women distinguishable from regular elite French women in, for example, their professional career path or lack of it? Is it common or at least not frowned upon for marriages to be entered into by say 20, like it might be in general elite society?
Yes, basically if you're not married off by 22-23 you lost the race.
The Elite American WASP culture (the natural aristocracy as Jefferson called it) fragmented because of WW2 and mostly disintegrated soon after during the Cold War. While débutante balls are still held in niche social circles in America, it has largely become a question of economic buy in, or something more crass like cargo cultists trying to recreate social technology they don't understand. The cargo cultist practitioners certainly don't look aristocratic. Perhaps there's some hidden Elite WASP circles that still maintain exclusivity and cohesion of values, but if they are around, they certainty don't appear to do well at contesting political power or even reproduction.
Empire is costly. When men of the Elite are stuffed into Officer uniforms (or even just the gray cubicles of the Civil Service) by the hundreds of thousands and sent far away for decades of service, social ties breakdown, and breeding becomes far less insular (war brides and war orphan adoptions). Traditions die. Bloodlines murky if not outright questionable.
Look at what happened to the Freemasons for instance, a deeply WASPy social institution that was near if not the very heart of Elite WASP culture. They haven't put a man in the White House since 1974 and are unlikely to do so in the future. They're not even WASPy anymore either, not merely on the basis of breeding, but also on culture and ethos. Which brings me back to débutante balls, the less crass ones that create some degree of exclusivity by requiring economic buy in, they are noticeably international and progressive. Understandably, they have little to do with breeding.
Thanks. Yes, the (relative) disappearance of the American WASP elite after WW2 is an enduring mystery to me, and a very important one I think.
Why do you think they disappeared? I think they just transmuted: the New England Puritans are very much the foundation of woke culture -every bit as censorious and intolerant, but without the Jesus part.
Yes, you are partly right, but certainly in terms of their representation in the American elite, their numbers have been greatly reduced. You just see very few WASPs at the forefront of American society--they have "disappeared." Of course they haven't COMPLETELY disappeared, and those that remained are indeed Puritan 2.0 i.e. woke.
There was a lot of intermarriage.
It's hard to find a WASP in the forefront of society because a half WASP/half Ashkenazi gets called a Jew, a half WASP/half Italian is Italian, if heritage is recognized at all, etc.
As for Deb balls, there are a lot of different ones. In the south, almost everyone does one, or did until recently. Mostly just LARPing. New Orleans, with a lot of French traditions still, has some. DC has one that looks superficially the same as any old world Deb, but is made up of women who already have a body count of 37. Same with NY(which has the largest and "most prestigious" one in the world). White Russians in NYC still have a relatively real one. A variety of country clubs host them, again more trappings than the real thing.